Veronica, Viviana, and Chela
Chela, the mother of Veronica and Viviana, is a second-generation Palestinian, born in the diaspora in Chile. Her father was born in Palestine and her mother was a descendant of Palestinians but born in Peru. Chela eventually moved from Chile to Peru “for love,” making her experience as a Palestinian living in the diaspora also marked by her migrations within Latin America. Veronica and Viviana have lived their entire lives in Peru as third-generation Palestinians in the diaspora. The following is a transcription of their interview.
Lauren:
Veronica [to Chela]:
Chela:
Lauren:
Veronica:
Chela:
Veronica:
Chela:
Veronica:
Chela:
Lauren:
Chela:
Veronica:
Chela:
Lauren:
Chela:
Lauren:
Viviana:
Lauren:
Viviana:
Veronica:
Lauren:
Viviana:
Veronica:
Chela:
Lauren:
Veronica:
Chela:
Veronica:
Lauren:
Veronica:
Viviana:
Veronica:
Chela:
Veronica:
Lauren:
Viviana:
Chela:
Veronica:
Lauren:
Chela:
Viviana:
Chela:
Veronica:
Lauren:
Veronica:
Chela:
Veronica:
Lauren:
Veronica:
Viviana:
Veronica:
Chela:
Lauren:
Chela:
Veronica:
Chela:
Lauren:
Viviana:
Veronica:
Chela:
Veronica:
Viviana:
Can you describe your connections to Palestine?
Your parents and your grandparents.
My father was born in Palestine. My mother was born in Peru, but descended from Arabs from both sides. So I am pure Arab; I don’t have any mixture. Genetically, I am an Arab. I was born in Chile, and raised there, but completely of Palestinian blood. My father always showed us the food and the customs. wWe always had a connection. My paternal grandmother lived with us, and she spoke to us in Arabic when we were children. And we had an Arabic dictionary from which she taught us a little. But then she died, my father stopped speaking Arabic, and we lost almost all the language. And then we didn’t speak it, except for certain words. Now we keep the customs of the foods, of celebrating Easter resurrection with the eggs, and what else of the Arab customs. My father was a man who arrived here with a lot of problems. [His family] came with one hand behind and the other in front, economically, leaving behind their home, leaving behind everything. [He left] at the age of 14. He was born in 1900, and he emigrated in 1914.
He emigrated before the Nakba?
Yes, in 1914, at the beginning of the first World War.
He came here because he had family here in Peru. And here he was given work.
Your father came to Peru or to Chile?
My father came to Peru. And here they helped him; they all helped each other, all of the immigrants. The immigrants gave you a hand when you had problems. From there, he started to work, he met my mother, of the Fatules, you know them. They got married in 1930, which is the beginning of the recession [the Great Depression], and some family member — an uncle — told him that the situation in Chile was better than in Peru. They were expecting my brother Jaime, he’s my older brother, who is now 93 years old. Anyways. this uncle told my father that the situation in Chile was better. And so he went to Chile, with my mother expecting my brother Jaime. And he stayed there. He never went back. We came back for vacation; my aunts, my mother’s sisters, they all lived in Arequipa. And so we went from Chile to Arequipa for a visit when I was 8 years old. My brother Jaime was 14, and my sister Susie, who has passed away, was 12. But we came to Peru on vacation, nothing more. We only went to Arequipa, we didn’t go to Lima or anywhere else. And after that, we went back to Chile. And, all of my aunts would go to Chile to visit my mother.
And your connection to Palestine: did you speak about Palestine in your house?
Yes. In reality my father, he missed his home; he had left his home.
His home was in Beit Jala, Palestine?
Beit Jala. He had left his home. It was a big mess. Shukri has probably told you that Jews came to buy our properties, and Aunt Elvira never wanted to sell. She never sold and everything was lost.
The Arab food was always made in your house.
Yes. In my house, every weekend we made Arab food. I make it here; well, I buy it, I don’t make it. Because I have very practical Arab customs.
And is it important to you that you have Palestinian heritage?
Yes, of course. I feel bad to never have gone. Because my husband never wanted to go. He said that he wasn’t going to go to Palestine while it was in the hands of the Zionists. And look, in spite of the fact that I have traveled a lot, because thank god, we were able, we never went. We went to China, to the United States. I wanted to go, I wanted to go more than anything because I am Catholic. I wanted to go to the Church of the Resurrection, to where Jesus Christ was born, and well - there is my father’s house. But we never went.
And is it important for you [Vivianna and Veronica]?
Of course.
Why?
Because it’s my race, my people, everything.
Yes, it is super important.
Have you talked about Palestine with your friends?
Yes, well, most of my friends that I have here are not from the Arab community. So, when they ask me about the conflict it is because they don’t know. For example, on Monday I had lunch with a friend of mine who has various friends in the Jewish community. And she sees what they post. So she said to me: “truthfully, I’m conflicted. I don’t what to believe, because I see what my friends post who are of Jewish descent: that, yes, it’s true that Israel goes and kills, but all those people they killed support Hamas. And then you come and you tell me no. And so I’m like between a rock and a hard place, and I don’t know exactly who to believe.” And so I tell her more or less what I know, the origin of the conflict, what happened afterward, so that she can try to understand a little bit more. Because the people are not of that Arab origin, I think that they don’t know, they don’t know the history.
Also, Peru is a very racist country. The social classes are very different. It’s a country that segregates a lot by social class. And the fact of being Palestinian puts you out of the categories. You don’t fit into those classic categories of white/Limeno, or cholo/Andean. Instead it puts you in a different spot, more impartial. And it lets you see things differently. And so that has been good for me. Because the racism in Peru is complex, it’s ugly, and to be able to place yourself in a different spot gives you a different perspective, and it lets you move in all of the situations.
I always talk about it. Always. I defend Palestine. The thing is that here, the ignorance of people makes them lump everyone together. They think the Arabs are all Muslims, that they are all people of ancient customs that don’t have liberties. Things that were not true of us. My father was a little controlling, because he had a difficult life, so he wanted the best for his kids. He wanted us to marry someone of Arab descent, right, because for him, it was the best thing that could happen. But in reality, he was not demanding. He gave us freedom. I went to Catholic school, I did my first communion, I married a Catholic. His hopes were with respect to the Arabs; he wanted us to be close to that community. But here, everything in Palestine is associated with being a terrorist, and everyone is a Muslim. They lump everyone together so I try to tell them: no.
Yes. Many people think this conflict is between Muslims and Jews. But you all are Palestinian and Catholic.
A majority of Arabs in Peru are Catholics.
My father was Orthodox. In reality, one of the strongest religions, after the Muslims, are the Orthodox [in Palestine]. The thing is that in Chile there was no Orthodox church, and so we were brought up as Catholic. But there are a lot of similarities in their systems: the Orthodox church with the Catholic.
The images that the media sends out about Arabs is fatal. All about terrorists. And there is a lot of ignorance about the Arab world. And about the differences. It’s like Latin America. When one travels abroad, people think that Colombia, Peru, Argentina, Chile, are all the same.
Do you think that this is changing? For example, the idea that all Palestinians are terrorists, do you think that people are realizing that this is not the truth?
It does feel that with this recent conflict, with what is going on right now, I have a ton of friends that wrote to ask me questions. This is the first time that I don’t have to bring it up. Instead, they are asking me questions about what is happening. There is a bigger impact internationally too, and above all the images of the children in Palestine are brutal. And the student movements in the United States have gotten attention. So, there is a distinct context.
Yes, and this friend that I just mentioned, she asked me: “But have you seen the number of Arabs infiltrated in the American universities?” So she was suggesting that they are trained terrorists. That’s the image that they have created, no? She said: “I’ve seen that in some posts by my friends.” So I asked her: “Well they are Zionists, right?” And she said yes. “Well,” I told her, “that’s the image that you see, depending on who is publishing it, right?” That’s what’s bad. So much disinformation.
The thing is, Peru is falling apart. That’s what people are interested in. And the people aren’t even mobilizing in Peru on the things that are happening here that affect them, much less will there be a mobilization for something that doesn’t affect them. There have been a few small mobilizations, but those that go are the children of Arabs: those that have strong ties. But there aren’t even mobilizations even over what is happening in the country. Because we have seen five presidents fall, and people are fed up with all politics. So here it is it’s hard to have a reaction to the Palestinian problem, when there’s no reaction against what is happening in this country.
In Chile, the Palestinian movement is much stronger.
In Chile, for example, although it's anecdotal, it’s very important, there is a soccer team that is called Palestinian. And this popularizes a theme to a level, because soccer is so important in Latin America, this puts the subject in another dimension.
And do you all go to the Arab club here?
We go there for lunch to eat Arabic food.
We used to go more often, when Uncle Fernando was alive, and when Veronica and Viviana were younger, we used to go more often. Now, we go to have lunch. What has happened now here in Lima is that a lot of Muslims have immigrated here, and they have joined the club. And so the majority of the club, and the people that go to the club are Muslims. There are people of all religions, but they are the ones that now consider it their refuge, their home.
Before you never saw Muslims. You saw Arab Greek Orthodox Christians, but now yes, now there are a lot of Arab Muslims.
And even though maybe people don’t have as much interest here in Peru, you have always spoken about this subject. Why is it important to talk about this subject, even if people aren’t interested?
I don’t know. I think of it as something that is mine. Among my friends the only Arab is me. They always have a little independence. I’m always the infiltrator; there’s always something, I’m not quite a part of the group. Despite the fact that I was born in Chile, and that I’ve lived here for 40 years, that's the way it is. Yesterday for example, I was playing bridge, and I told one of my friends that you were coming, and about your project, and it went in one ear and out the other. It didn’t interest her. It doesn’t interest them.
How do you feel when they don’t react?
I know them well. I know that what interests them more is gossip and stories. And these racial problems… they are not interested in what is going on in the country. Because they complain, but they don’t do anything for this country, so even less are they going to care about the Palestinian problem. They don’t care.
Also, here a lot of people have European ancestry: Italian, Spanish, French, German. And every day you hear kids ask you: and do you have another passport? So I joke and say: “they are going to give me a passport for the Gaza strip.” Because there is that problem with identity, also. And you see, here in Lima, in our social circle that we move in, everyone has a double nationality. Everyone. And you feel like, “where do I fit,” since you too have ancestry from another country, but it’s a different case because it’s not recognized. So you always feel like you are misplaced, right?
[Chela’s other daughter] told me that she feels something like a perpetual migrant. Do you feel the same way?
Yes, yes, always. Well, and I’ve always felt like a double immigrant, because I emigrated from Chile to Peru. I came here to get married, I got married and left my home, and then I have my Palestinian origins. So, like a double immigrant. I feel like I never assimilated 100% in Peru.
In addition, Lauren, here in Peru, in general, we hate the Chileans. Because Peru and Chile had a war. The Chileans won, they invaded Lima and sacked it, and burned Lima. So the Peruvians, we have a rivalry with the Chileans that has lasted for decades. Tomorrow there is a (soccer) match between Peru and Chile. You will see how it is. The coach that coaches Chile now was the coach of the Peruvian team, so there is chaos in Peru because the coach betrayed us and went to coach the Chilean team. So, the Chileans have never been very well received here. So that is another layer.
But do you know what makes me sad? Those people, those who are escaping from Gaza, where are they going to go? What are they going to do with their lives? What’s going to happen to those children?
And, when it becomes clear that the Zionists won’t pull back, anyone who has left will never be able to return. That won’t happen. So it’s like a different stage of genocide then.
Do you have hopes for a Free Palestine? What would that look like?
Well, the Palestine that I imagine is the Palestine before imperialism. Right? The Palestine that had the best universities of the Arab world.
They were known for mathematics.
Mathematics, studies, culture, poetry.
Unfortunately, the neighboring Arab countries are not going to help. If they had wanted to help, they years ago could have taken Israel and everything. But they don’t care. These millionaire countries like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, and all of those, they don’t care about the Palestinian problem. They have shown that they don’t care. Because they could have sent Israel flying a long time ago. But they stay in their own lives, and it's not their problem. It’s not their problem. Even though they are Arabs, no. They don’t care at all. So it’s very difficult.
Do you have any thoughts on the growing Jewish population in the US fighting for Palestine? How do you feel that there are strong pro-Palestine movements in general in the United States?
That’s good, that’s very good. But I think that it won’t amount to anything. The power of the other side is much stronger. Economically, the United States is completely in agreement with Israel. They are never going to be able to compete with that. If they could, it would be different.
Yes, well, it’s important. If these Jews are pro-Palestine, it’s because they understand the situation, that there’s something there that is not right. The thing is how many will it take to be something important enough to generate change? But the problem is with the money; it is difficult to change the reasoning of an entire country.
Let’s hope, let’s hope. It would be a miracle, but let’s hope, God willing. I just want there to be calm and peace. That’s important. That they don’t continue killing people, how they are killing them.
And how do you think that could be a reality; how could there be peace?
How can we have peace? Difficult.
There would have to be an international agreement, right? An agreement for protection, for change. A type of protectorate. Like it was: Palestine was a protectorate, a British protectorate. Until Churchill drew the map and gave the land to them [Israel]. It should be a demilitarized zone, like Costa Rica, for example. Costa Rica is a county in Latin America that doesn’t have an army. It's protected by international treaties. And so they invest in education and environmental protection.
I would like there to be peace, nothing else. That they would leave us alone. There should be peace in the world in all its meanings.
The idea is that there would be a co-existence, even in the same territory, peaceful. I’m not saying that they are going to be good friends, but each one with their territory, but that there is no war, so that so many people are not dying, above all the children, because that’s a terrible thing.
The Arabs and the Jews, that’s what they say: it’s two branches of the same tree, isn’t that it? So we have to remember that, and then maybe we can find a solution.